Curse

rii · Aug 25, 2005, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Mesmers shine already.

Personally, the most important thing on that spirits area was 'changing the effect and cost of.... qz'. arg, nerf! and i wont know what it is for like 5 days. im going to cry. hopefully its just going up to 10e or something.

Ill live with fertile and nr. fertile is just anti spike for me (i dont spirit spam) so how long do you need? and i think that nr is good. not great, it wont be used half as much, but i suppose its fallen into niche area now, like most spirits.

I couldnt care less about the changes to eles, perhaps ill see some fire spikers running around going lol but in about two weeks nothing will have really really changed. major overhaul needed for fire i feel. as ensign said above, you can get a coherent build out fire now but you wont me find it. you only get 8 slots, the only thing id use is shower, but ive been using that since i saw it on the realease of the first skill listings. and even then i dont use it much.

draw and boon are just not really very good mods. boo suck. its still smiting ftw for a while yet.

Putrid? again, ftw? im afraid except in suicide squads most deaths are more than 5 seconds apart, monks arent that incompetent are they? if it was 10s that might work. if it was 15s id say thats about sorted. 5s just isnt much different.

Panic!!!!!! 7 seconds and a decent radius. the damage was rubbish to start with, but if its keeping its 10s recharge thats really nice. not sure whether id actually use it though, apart from ending maintainables, qz debil is frankly the leader in the field. its now upgraded quite a lot though. up along with lingering curse, which i can now use again. life i good.

Spinal shivers still has the big energy loss, perhaps two guys, one with a cold wand and the other renewal energy upkeeping. or, tfcg :S not a great help.

Dwarven battle stance? still not good. shorten to 3-10, change to 20s recharge, and make it a skill not a stance (maybe dwarven battle rage or something). still cant frenzy and it still doesnt last very long.

I look forward to seeing the rest of the mods.

RUST 4 TEH WIN!!!!!!

Algren Cole · Aug 25, 2005, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth Kg

wow... ok so your reply to a different view from someone else starts with an insult?

in reply to the rest of your post... i think that the devs introduced nature's renewal as a way for a non-caster team to fight a caster time. this means that they wanted to give players the opportunity to use a team that was largely composed of warriors and/or rangers that doesn't "need" enchantments and hexs and give them a way of fighting against the casters that use hexes and enchantments since there are no real skills in warrior and ranger that casts enchantments or remove them... so they made nature's renewal the original way... but i think they didn't consider the way people came to use it which was constant spamming thus actually neutralizing and pretty much making it unviable to use any long lasting enchantment and hexes... thus the "fix" which fits (in my believe, which i know you consider me a moron for it) the original desire of the devs which is to give a warrior/ranger team a way of fighting against casters

agreed. I do believe that was the original intent of the developers. But I wouldn't be the least bit surprised at all if they "fixed" nature renewal just to get people to stop bitching. It wasn't overpowered....Oath Shot and the ability to spam spirits made it overpowered. But yes I do agree that the original intent of the developers was to give a non-enchant/hex based team a viable chance against enchantment stackers.

Warskull · Aug 25, 2005, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Nature's renewal was changed as a response to healing ball, it got way out of hand so it is getting changed again. Remember IGN cares little about accuracy or actually getting information (like the error with spirits in this article.) There are very likely changes that aren't included in that list. The unused list is likely a couple of examples because I know there are a lot more skill that are rarely if ever used. Dark fury is the perfect example of this, who has noticed the skill description for dark fury has an error in it? In one of the patches dark fury's skill description now says:

" Sacrifice up to 17% max health. For 5 seconds, the next time any nearby party member hits with an attack+C56784, that party member gains one hit of adrenaline."

It is obvious a hex number snuck in there (might not be the exact hex number, trying to recall it from memory) and was not intended, but this skill is so ignored no one realizes it. It used to be correct at one point too, I forget when though.

Having little faith in arena.net is understandable, but what is listed in the balance list looks fairly good this time. It is a bit thin, but at least addresses the major problems.

Silmor · Aug 25, 2005, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Algren Cole: didn't we agree that you'd keep your mouth shut about Nature's Renewal until you did some actual reading-up on it? A person suggesting Edge of Extinction is a good counter to Nature's Renewal's effects has absolutely no place calling someone else a moron, if you catch my drift.

Neo-LD · Aug 25, 2005, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

They've designed themselves into a corner, with Elementalists designed to be the supposed 'damage kings' of the game, with a ton of skills that do nothing but deal grossly inefficient damage, while Warriors, Rangers, and even Smiting Monks deal more damage at much more reasonable costs. They can't crank up Elementalist damage even more without creating gross instakill imbalances (like what Chain Lightning spikers did to unprepared teams), and bringing Warrior or Ranger down until Elementalists actually were competitive on damage alone would be a huge nerf. I'm not sure what they even can do at this point, but it'll be interesting to see how they handle this problem in the long run.

Peace,
-CxE

Hmm. Hee are some ideas of mine that might fix it (somewhat)

What they could do is mod some spells so they deal increased damage upon hit, but have after effects that make spiking with similar spells less effective. Heres what I mean: Lightning Strike could deal 75 damage at 16, but would have a downside like "for the next 3 seconds, that enemy gains +30 AL vs lightning" Which would actually make sense b/c if you get shocked in real life, getting shocked again immedeately doesnt hurt as bad. On the other hand, if you wait a while in between, you will experince the full pain of both shocks. Also, if you get shocked, which would hurt more, getting shocked again, or getting burnt? They could make fire skills deal more damage but have the "on fire" condition give extra AL vs fire damage. Come to think of it, they could create similar conditions for each element instead of that iffy "for the next 3s deal. getting hit with strike would give you some condition called "electrified" or sumthin which would last 3s and give you the bonus AL. This owuld give eles back some of their title as damage kings and still make it difficult to spike. This might also cuase some interesting tactics like quad-element nuke teams, trying to take advantage of increased damage and ggetting around the same element penelty. Just an idea though.

Also, exhaustion needs to toned waaaayyy down. Either it needs to be fixed to only drain 5 max energy per ehaust, or far less skills should inflict it. Only the really huge stuff like metoer sotrm should exhaust.

Water needs to be fixed somehow. All the skills look the same. Some of them should inflict damage + complete freeze, not just slow. Some should slow attack rate, cast times, recharge rates, etc. There are many more things it could/should slow down than just movement rate.

Lastly, there needs to be some more cross element combos that people would actually take advantage of. Just about the only one right now is lightning touch + water hex for the oh so impressive +20 damage. I guess you could count enervating charge + stoning. But there needs to be lightning spells that deal TRIPLE damage if the target is doused by water (affected by a water hex) There needs to be Earth magma spells that get better if the target is on fire. If water gets fixed how I want, then freeze in place + meteor storm or the like would be a combo.

Thats how I would start to fix elementalists.

IlikeGW · Aug 25, 2005, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabale

Well, I think overall we'll see an increase in Mesmers. I hope they get their chance to shine for a while at least.

As they should... the game works better when you need more classes to do well... not when people find a way to stack the hell out of something and stagnate competition. I hope eventually it's balanced enough where it comes down to whether your individual players are better than the other teams, not that one team is ganking you with their cheap new trick all the time.

Episodicfreak · Aug 25, 2005, 04:46 PM // 16:46

someone said it earlier, but dont take that list on IGN as the be all and end all of the changes, wait to see what else is being rolled out, one thing i really do hope is that spirits get changed in a big enough way to stop people blocking the relic on unholy temples with them. *blood boils at the thought*

i was always a little dubious of the fact that you can run through your own spirits, but not the other team's...

Arturo02 · Aug 25, 2005, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Then you weren't paying attention. Chain Lightning spikes were FOTM for a while for a reason - it's because Chain Lightning is (was?) overpowered, at least for an Elementalist skill. Certainly it fell out of vogue, particularly in Tombs where air gank was neither effective against most hall holding (Fertile) builds nor had much potential to hold itself, but the skill was still well out of line and this nerf, while not *needed* in any real sense, was still called for given the power level that they've outlined for Elementalists.

Peace,
-CxE

Maybe the voices for spirit nerfing were a lot louder?

Seriously though, I think I came into the game after the air spiker fad. But now that you mention it, that makes sense if you got three or four people all hitting a group with chain. Ah well, I guess I can deal with these changes. I didn't pick e/n to be gimpy or twinkish, heck I run blood not death on my secondary.

Thanks for the info.

salja Wachi · Aug 25, 2005, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calibretto_9

It seems that they are making some effort to stop the overall spamming of putrid, but I'm actually looking forward to the return of enchantment stripping skills. It was almost laughable at best to bring them with nature's renewal around, but now teams will have to back it off a bit and maybe the necromancer can get some love. Actually, after thinking about that it's completely not true. Necromancers still suck compared to other primaries, but dangit, they have to realize that eventually.

spoken like a tru warrior.

but then again we expect no less from you

Elythor · Aug 25, 2005, 06:29 PM // 18:29

I for one welcome our new skill-nerf-buff overlords.

Anyway. From the description of NR, it doesn't necessarily rule out AOE removal of Enchant or Hex. Personally I'd like to see NR to remove 1 hex/enchant, then double cost of maintained enchantment. If we just concentrate on anti-enchant, than the anti-hex aspect of the original skill gets taken out all together. Removing only 1 hex/enchant will also limit the effectiveness of Oath Shot + NR to spam mass removal.

Panic seems like a really nice skill now. I'm glad I've capped it recently while running Hell's Precipice again.

Putrid Explosion seems like a really terrible skill now. With 5s casting time, no one will ever bring it since every necro will be casting Wells. This also gives plenty of time to people to "run away from a corpse"...which also makes Putrid even MORE useless. The only "good" point left about Putrid is the 0 cool-down time.

I also agree with the posters above that other enchant stripping skills need a slight boost. Shatter Enchant for example...would be made a lot better if its recharge time becomes 20 rather than staying at 25. This makes it comparible to the enchant cool down time and thus become a sustainable enchant-remover. Rend and Lingering Curse are just fine because of their mass-removal ability.

Mercury Angel · Aug 25, 2005, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elythor

Putrid Explosion seems like a really terrible skill now. With 5s casting time, no one will ever bring it since every necro will be casting Wells. This also gives plenty of time to people to "run away from a corpse"...which also makes Putrid even MORE useless. The only "good" point left about Putrid is the 0 cool-down time.

5 second recharge, not casting time.

Unless people die faster than 3-4 seconds apart, it'll still be useable.

: Person dies. Putrid. 3 seconds later, another person dies. Other person starts 3 second well. 2 more seconds later, Putrid recharges. Person casts Putrid. Well fails.

Considering how few matches I know of that last less than 40 seconds, it's not a huge nerf. It just stops chain casting, which is probably a good thing, considering how powerful it is.

Borealis · Aug 25, 2005, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Of all spells in the world if tyria, they had to dink with divine boon.........damnit damnit damnit.....

Asplode · Aug 25, 2005, 07:07 PM // 19:07

So okay, you can have more than 1 type of spirit down, just not more than 1 of the same spirit.

...and to think I soiled my pants for a reason...

Regardless, with nature's bent over a table and spanked as hard as it is, it really does open up a slew of awkward enchantment chains, which will, I suppose, expose any other skill imbalances in due time, and further evolve the metagame, so...maybe nerfing renewal isn't so bad after all.

octaviancmb · Aug 25, 2005, 07:20 PM // 19:20

I just got 56% of my skills back with a vengeance. My Mesmer is practically singing! Beware PvP, I come for you...

Positive change, thanks ANET,
cmb

Amused Observer · Aug 25, 2005, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabale

Well, I think overall we'll see an increase in Mesmers. I hope they get their chance to shine for a while at least.

Agreed. The changes in NR and Panic make Mes a very attractive invitee for PvP play.

JMFD · Aug 25, 2005, 08:17 PM // 20:17

First things first, I am looking at things entirely from a pve perspective, so bear with me.

/cheer @ Fireball changes. A staple of one of my builds, being able to spam it that much more easily is going to have some interesting reprocussions. If other fire spells have recharge dropped, it may even result in my switching secondaries (I use e/r for s quickness for constant nukes)

/cheer @ spirits The wailing lord/griffons quest in FoW became that much more doable.

/cheer @ nerfing chain lit. This is going to mean less air eles in general, which means less air eles in pve (especially fow/uw) thinking they are the best ele build ever as they are great in pvp. Also less damage from those ruddy smoke phantoms and their cousins on crack the portal wraiths.

in general

/cheer @ anet

Yawgmoth Kg · Aug 25, 2005, 08:25 PM // 20:25

I really can't wait to see the buffs they made to enchantment removal...

Akathrielah · Aug 25, 2005, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Spirit Changes - Kudos on the changes to the spirits, but I think they were a little bit too heavy handed, they could have merely made the spirits incorporeal and let spirits still be spammable. With spirits no longer under the effect of Fertile Seasons and since only 1 copy of each will only be allowed soon, they are just a wee bit too easily brought down.

Elementalist Changes - As someone more knowledgable than I already stated, Elementalist already had enough problems with their supposedly "top-rated" damage dealing to warrant this change. If anything the soon to be former chain-lightning is what the other elementalist spike damage spells should have been like - Absurdly powerful at the cost of being horrificaly mana inefficient. Unfortunately, I doubt Anet would ever make any changes to it, as too many people would protest any buff to elementalist, since "OMG BIG NUMBERZ ON SPELLZ" is all they see.

Smite Changes - yeah divine boon and draw conditions technically aren't skills on the smite line, but they are mainly used in conjuction with Zealots fire to smite. All I have to say is this changes squat, smiting is still going to be absurdly strong.

entropy · Aug 25, 2005, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Agh they had better boost enchantment removal soon. At least now necro's can do a lot better in PvP. Well of the profane and then the whole hex line comes back thank god.

Ensign · Aug 25, 2005, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asplode

Zing! I'm somewhat surprised they didn't make the recast 2 seconds to match it with ROF.

I was to. I asked around a bit on Fianna vent last night to try and get a feel for why that particular change was made, and the general reaction was 'because we don't know how our game works.'

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asplode

Honestly, though, I think the best way to offset the savage NR nerf is to make spot removals cheaper and faster to even have a shadow of hope of competing with the kind of enchantment jettison people can pump out

Removal just needs to be cheaper across the board. When I say removal, I mean Necromancer removal - Mesmer stuff doesn't even really count as removal, it's a bunch of conditional nukes and conditional energy management. But having to fight enchantment stacks with Chilblains and Lingering Curse is wholly insufficient - skills like those, that can really punish people for overloading on enchants, need to be priced to hurt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asplode

One last note about the enchant/hex/strip balance being turned on its head, smitehex under qz is a 7.5s recast, 1s cast, 7 energy spell. Compare that to some of the enchant removal spells out there.

Hex Removal isn't great but the tools are at least there - a few copies of Smite / Inspired, maybe a Remove Hex, a Convert somewhere. The difference is that it takes an awful lot of resources to hex stack someone out, and all of that gets nullified by a Convert. You really can't set up crazy hex webs like you can with enchantments either - really all you can do is pile crap onto someone until they're useless. Now I'll revoke my statements once the power hex stacking builds come out (and Panic has given people a *great* reason to make those), but until then I don't think that hexes are nearly the concern that enchantments are.

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